Well my general point is if women were equal our support services would not be cut, there would be an appreciation that women statistically do not access the same services as men and if there were cuts to be made they would happen either from programs non essential to each group equally or they would happen to each cluster equally… If women were equal then the spouse who stayed home and took care of the house, the spouse who raised the kids would be recognized financially for their contriabution to society, rather then losing financially. Did you know that by leaving the work force to stay at home with children, women take a significant decrease in their pension? This is also impacted by their statistically earning less money then men and working in more short term jobs.
I think that she’s confusing equality of opportunity with equality of outcomes. I fully agree that women should have equality of opportunity, but unless we force men and women to make statistically similar choices then you will not get statistically similar outcomes. It’s no different to the case of, for example, people with tendencies towards the arts or the sciences. Both art-leaning and science-leaning people have, all else being equal, the same oportunities in most Western societies. This doesn’t mean that they will make the same choices. This will then lead to a significant statistical variation in the outcomes. For example, the science-leaning people will, on average, end up earning more than the arts-leaning people (with, of course, a substantial overlap between the two groups). To insist that the art and science people should earn the same would involve installing some kind of command economy, and even then there would presumably be other inequivalencies between the groups (perhaps the arts people would be happier on average, and then we’d have to insist that something should be done to make scientists happier).
It’s just the same with men and women, save for the fact that the two groups are easily identifiable. Even if presented with an equal set of opportunities, they will potentially choose differently and have statistically different outcomes along almost any dimension we care to examine. In actuality, we know that men and women make statistically different choices along many dimensions. This isn’t to say that all the women will choose one way and all the men another way. Women can make “male” choices and men “female” choices, but statistically they don’t. If they did then there would be no gender differences at all.
It seems to me that after reaching the point of equality of opportunity (which we are certainly approaching), then you have three intellectually honest choices regarding gender differences and sexism.
- Reject sexism and gender differences by biologically and socially conditioning men and women to have statistically similar decision making.
- Accept gender differences, reject sexism, and thus accept inequivalent outcomes.
- Accept gender differences and sexism in some manner.
(There isn’t a fourth option because rejecting gender differences while being sexist doesn’t make sense, so far as I can tell.)
Ashley clearly rejects the first two options, and so I think it’s clear that she is manifestly supporting sexist choices. That’s certainly a defensible position in a number of respects, but what it equally clearly isn’t is a position that one can adopt while claiming not to be sexist. Indeed, with her talk of Women’s Groups and Women’s Ministers, she’s being manifestly sexist. Or else she’d be calling for “Equal Opportunity Groups” or “Equal Opportunity Ministers”.
(My own position is to accept gender differences [and many other differences too - diversity is good!] and reject sexism. I don’t think that the government should primarily be protecting people against the likely consequences of their choices. Instead, it should be protecting people against the consequences of things that are beyond their control. I’m not such an extremist that I think this should be an absolute rule (hence, amongst other things, my use of the phrase “likely consequences”), but I think that any deviations should be the subject of debate.)
End of counter-rant.
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I agree with Rich. Feminism irritates me, because it seems to me to have very little to do with equality. It tells me that as a woman, I should be campaigning for all women to be paid the same as the white middle-class man in the same job - instead of for *everybody* to be paid the same as him. It also tells me that I should be feeling kinship with people I feel no kinship with, because they happen to be the same sex as me. It makes about as much sense to me as telling me to feel kinship with all the right-handed people in the world, because I am right-handed. But I don't categorise people that way, because I don't categorise myself that way. And I don't think that it is helpful to categorise people by sex, and harping on about women's rights seems to encourage people to do just that. At least in my experience. |
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I wanted to post on the labrynthitus site, but don't seem to be able to, any advice? If you want my comments on feminism I am happy to oblige,that might take my mind off my dizzyness I supose! Single parent, brought up 2 children alone,working full time, no financial help from anyone, can change a plug and a nappy at the same time!!!! Don't talk to me about feminism, I live it every day! |
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heya fellow sufferers. my names sarah and im 14(15 in july YAY). almost exactly one year ago, i was stood in my bedroom when i the room began to spin violently and i think i fainted. this was the first time in my life thta i had ever felt dizzy, and had not ever really been ill prior to this occasion. i led on my bed, and was violently sick on and off for the following two days. i could not move my head a millimetre, and di not eat anything. on the sunday morning, my mum decided i should see a doctore. as i could not walk, we called a doctor out. he tried to do tests but i was to ill to be of much help. however, he could see that one of my eyes was flickering. he said i needed to go to the hosp[ital for a brain scan. an ambulance took me on a stretcher to the hospital, where i stayed for 8 nights. i could not eat drink go to the tiolet or anything. i had no energy and was going to go on a drip. i had pills to stop me from vomiting, and vertigo pills. an on call doctor let me out 9 days later, but i couldnt walk or eat and the world was spinning. this was may. i didnt return to school until september, and i know this sounds stupid, but it was only decenber that i could turn over on my side in bed without the world swaying. around christmas time, i started to get dizzy again. not the world spinning, but a truly strange and nasty sensation tht i cannot describe. i kinda thought it could be my period, or i could just be ill with something else, or i was imagerning it. but i went to the doctor whos said basically - tough luck, ur prob have it for life - dont watch tele exercise if its jerky or jumping around, look at computers run around or smash your head up. im sorry, IM A TEENAGER who has a life i have tablets to take if i get'dizzy', but i dont like to take them often cos i dont want to get into the habit of it. 2day at school however, was bad. i woke up at 5.20, to find the world spinning. christ, it hasnt done it like that since last may in hospital. i groaned out loud and went back to sleep. when i woke up i was fine. my periods due, so i feel grotty anyway, and im stressed with all the eexams and coursework at school as well as friends and boys and stuff. anyway i got to school and was okish, not light headed or anything. then in sociology my head felt as if i was swaying, and i was freezing and all shivery, even tho it was boiling. at break i sat in a corner, with friends guarding me from the rest of the school. i felt as if i should eat, but i couldnt face food or drink. which means im not sposed to have a pill, but i dnt feel that they work anyway. then in geography i was REALLY whoah were am i going, head swaying sensation, but not exactly dizzy. the teacher knows bout the whole labrynthitus thing, and i was cold even though the rest of class were sweltering, so all the windows werew shut, curtains drawn (im better when its dark) and my coat on. (HA god they moaned, serves them right, theyre a bunch of morons)and then this guy whos my friend was mucking around and hit me on the head, and i got all tearful and hormonal and pre periodish and stressed and just curled up and 'slept' as best you can amid 30 other rowdy teenagers. then we had english and i 'slept' in the corner. by lunch all id eaten all day was a piece of bread and low fat peanut butter, and i felt faint. i also felt sick at the thought of food, but one of my friends made me nest of coats on the playing fields, anfd made me eat those puffedricerainbow things, which are just like air, and i felt a little better. o sat next to a really sweet friend in statistics who gave me hug and now i feel fine!!!!!!im hyper even lololol i feel im worse when im 'on' if u get me, under the weather or STRESSED any1 else sympathsise with this??? iv bin diagnosed with viral labrythitus, but maybe im imagining this, or maybe its my period, tho it doesnt feel like it. or maybe its just a stress thing? if anyone would like to reply or anything u could email me i really want someone to talk to, just to like destress kinda thing and chat bout rubbish to all my sympathy to you lot thanku for listening love sarah |
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heya fellow sufferers. my names sarah and im 14(15 in july YAY). almost exactly one year ago, i was stood in my bedroom when i the room began to spin violently and i think i fainted. this was the first time in my life thta i had ever felt dizzy, and had not ever really been ill prior to this occasion. i led on my bed, and was violently sick on and off for the following two days. i could not move my head a millimetre, and di not eat anything. on the sunday morning, my mum decided i should see a doctore. as i could not walk, we called a doctor out. he tried to do tests but i was to ill to be of much help. however, he could see that one of my eyes was flickering. he said i needed to go to the hosp[ital for a brain scan. an ambulance took me on a stretcher to the hospital, where i stayed for 8 nights. i could not eat drink go to the tiolet or anything. i had no energy and was going to go on a drip. i had pills to stop me from vomiting, and vertigo pills. an on call doctor let me out 9 days later, but i couldnt walk or eat and the world was spinning. this was may. i didnt return to school until september, and i know this sounds stupid, but it was only decenber that i could turn over on my side in bed without the world swaying. around christmas time, i started to get dizzy again. not the world spinning, but a truly strange and nasty sensation tht i cannot describe. i kinda thought it could be my period, or i could just be ill with something else, or i was imagerning it. but i went to the doctor whos said basically - tough luck, ur prob have it for life - dont watch tele exercise if its jerky or jumping around, look at computers run around or smash your head up. im sorry, IM A TEENAGER who has a life i have tablets to take if i get'dizzy', but i dont like to take them often cos i dont want to get into the habit of it. 2day at school however, was bad. i woke up at 5.20, to find the world spinning. christ, it hasnt done it like that since last may in hospital. i groaned out loud and went back to sleep. when i woke up i was fine. my periods due, so i feel grotty anyway, and im stressed with all the eexams and coursework at school as well as friends and boys and stuff. anyway i got to school and was okish, not light headed or anything. then in sociology my head felt as if i was swaying, and i was freezing and all shivery, even tho it was boiling. at break i sat in a corner, with friends guarding me from the rest of the school. i felt as if i should eat, but i couldnt face food or drink. which means im not sposed to have a pill, but i dnt feel that they work anyway. then in geography i was REALLY whoah were am i going, head swaying sensation, but not exactly dizzy. the teacher knows bout the whole labrynthitus thing, and i was cold even though the rest of class were sweltering, so all the windows werew shut, curtains drawn (im better when its dark) and my coat on. (HA god they moaned, serves them right, theyre a bunch of morons)and then this guy whos my friend was mucking around and hit me on the head, and i got all tearful and hormonal and pre periodish and stressed and just curled up and 'slept' as best you can amid 30 other rowdy teenagers. then we had english and i 'slept' in the corner. by lunch all id eaten all day was a piece of bread and low fat peanut butter, and i felt faint. i also felt sick at the thought of food, but one of my friends made me nest of coats on the playing fields, anfd made me eat those puffedricerainbow things, which are just like air, and i felt a little better. o sat next to a really sweet friend in statistics who gave me hug and now i feel fine!!!!!!im hyper even lololol i feel im worse when im 'on' if u get me, under the weather or STRESSED any1 else sympathsise with this??? iv bin diagnosed with viral labrythitus, but maybe im imagining this, or maybe its my period, tho it doesnt feel like it. or maybe its just a stress thing? if anyone would like to reply or anything u could email me i really want someone to talk to, just to like destress kinda thing and chat bout rubbish to all my sympathy to you lot thanku for listening love sarah |
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sorry my comments there 2 times - guess my point is made twice as important now? and i posted it here seeing as that labrythitus site comment board has really flunked hasnt it? sarah |
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oops sorry my email address is sarah_chivers296@hotmail.co.uk if any1 can be bothered to email me im not dizzy at the mo!!!!!yay lololololol im HYPER im the one with the long rambling comments above love sarah |
"sex-ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skszm) n. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender."
Curtosy of dictonary.com, I however was saying that women should be free to choose weather or not they wanted to conform to the stereotypical social roles based on their gender or if they wanted to deviate.
I was saying that one set of aspects given to one specic gender group should not be given a greater value then the other.
I belive I do not clearly reject the first two options, I do belive that we have differant opinions on what equality looks like and what that would entail and I know we both think that the path to equality of any group is differant.
I was calling for women's groups and supports for women to try and level the playing feild, so then Equality groups can step in and maintain and mediate.
If one group is weaker and of less value no matter how much mediation occurs there cannot be equality.
I do not expect this to happen realistically in my life time or really anytime soon. I am saying that I am going to do my damnedest to make sure that within my generation progress is made, I am going to stand up and try and stop the liberal goverment cuts (you would love to talk to the Minister of Women actually)
I was talking of Women's groups within my rant, as they do most of the research around women, and most of the work around women and equality.
I was talking about Minister of Women, not Women Ministers. There is a differance. Once B.C. had a ministry for the equality of women, it was a full free standing ministry. This year it was reduced into the ministry for "Community, Aborigionals, and Women". Oddly the three areas that had been severaly cut, oddly some of the most vulnerable people in this specic society fit into those groups and those services cut.
I am not calling for specific special treatment of women persay, I am calling for the addition of programs that would benfit any man who was a stay at home parent, who was affected by any of these issues.
For example: I was saying that *home makers* should be recognized for their contrabution to society. I belive I even mentioned within my writing that these are not exclusivly women, but statstically more women are home makers of provide secondary incomes.
I tried to make it very clear that what I was writing was my response mentally and emotionally to being told serveal times that: women should just give up femininity in preferance to masculinity, women could be equal if they really wanted.
The society I live in has no respect for the woman's traditional role, it gives that role no value. However at the same time, it is removing the structures that helps women freely expand beyond that role's limitations. The supports that help them leave dangerous life threatning situations.
If they are going to make cuts to social serivices, Women, Aborigional, and Immigrant servcies should not be the first to go, however they are.
A lot of the women services cut have a part to play in rape relife, a part to play in working with the sexually explioted, with helping women get out of dangerous and abusive situations. With out these supports leaving an abusive situation becomes even harder. Not impossible, but a lot more difficult.
The aborigional community within Canada, and especially british columbia has lost a large part of the culture, and require social services in a large way. Their entire culture was ripped from them 75-90% (depending on if you get the stats from Stats canada (mid way between those two), an aborigional group (the higher end) or ministry sites (the lower end)) spent their child hood being phsycially and sexually abused, with out being able to observe parenting though their own parents (as the Resedential Schools they were sent to live in away from their family did not teach parenting skills) many now have children and are repeting the patterns of abuse that happened to them.
I think that this specific group of people is hurting in a specific way. Regardless of why or how even if the wounds were not inflicted by me or my ancestors I belive that I as a member of this society now have a responsability to them. I belive that my government has a responability to ensure that they are provided with the supports they need to learn parenting skills, to reclaim their culture, to deal with their abuse, to devlop coping skills that are posotive and productive.
No not every aborigional fits that catagory, not every one was hurt from the Resedential schools here, but a large number were and it is impacting their lives now. They need support and services to be avaible.
Women too need differant supports, their differances need to be accepted and appreciated and valued. They should have the freedom to make decisions and choices.
This is not to make them more equal then men. This is not to elevate them above men. This is to start the process of bringing things onto an equal level playing feild.
What you are saying to me is like telling an abused child that they made the decision not to sand up to their abuser so they chose to be a victem and should deal with it.
Women like that child have been pushed down and supressed, we have not been allowed to acess resources or our human rights. It is all well and good to tell women as a group to just acess them, but it is not that easy.
Yes that may seem like I am taking a preferance to women and their cause. However it is recognised that within my area they are the most affected by the govenment cuts. The united nations has even taken a stand on this within Canada and within British Columbia.
However if you read the CEDAW proposal or look at the BC Coalition for women's website you will find that at the same time as cutting all these programs, British Columbia made a bid for the Olympics. The money it cost to make that bid alone would have funded every woman's resource' centre' within British Columbia for another 10 years.
Granted I am of the opinion that a goverment should look after it's citizens before the intrests of big buisness (Yes I am a bleeding heart wide eyed idealistic leftie).